"Intermediate"

[Oscar77]

We often heard ppl describbing discus with this term "Intermediate", such as Albino Intermediate, so what is "Intermediate"?

Intermediate goods or producer goods are goods used as inputs in the production of other goods, such as partly finished goods or raw materials. A firm may make then use intermediate goods, or make then sell, or buy then use them. In the production process, intermediate goods either become part of the final product, or are changed beyond recognition in the process.

http://www.investordictionary.com/definition/intermediate+good.aspx

Final goods and services are those sold to a final user --- one who does not plan to transform the goods or services and then sell them to someone else. Other goods are called “intermediate goods”. Intermediate goods are part of the production process. They are sold to someone who will transform them and sell them on to someone else.

So what does Discus Intermediate mean?

Let say a breeder want to create Golden Leapord Snake Skin (Final Good). This GLSS should look like LSS with golden base. But in the middle of the crossing, he will get some fishes which doesn't appear to what he expected. The fishes might look like LSS, some only have partial golden base. This is call "Intermediate". The breeder will need to further crossing few more generation until the fish achieve his "desire" strain.

[Oscar77]

Now, does it appropriate to give the term "intermediate" for discus? To me, the answer are YES and NO. YES, if you know what are you buying and you know what to breed (cross) in order to get the final good. NO, if you don't know what intermediate means and don't know what you going to do with this "intermediate".

Fish does not like any other good. I take computer processor manufactured by Intel as example. Intel Processor is a intermediate product, some one buy it and fix into a computer, may it be IBM, Compaq, HP or Dell, and the computer is the final product. Very simple and straight forward. But fish because it is life product which genetics (Till date, we know very little about it) involved, make it to achieve "final product" become complicated. Even the breeder himself, also cannot guarantee how this "intermediate" could turn out. He has to keep crossing and improving this intermediate to become "desired final product"

So, I would say, intermediate is a "junk" fish, if some one don't know how to make use of it. "Junk" as the fishes does not look like this, nor look like that. But is a "Gem" for those who know how to "treasure" it.

Don't forget, many wonderful discus strain been thru this stage (Intermediate) too. So "junk" or "gem"? Is the matter of how you "use" it.

Please pardon my poor English.

[Aquatic Planet]

So, I would say, intermediate is a "junk" fish, if some one don't know how to make use of it. "Junk" as the fishes does not look like this, nor look like that. But is a "Gem" for those who know how to "treasure" it.

Don't forget, many wonderful discus strain been thru this stage (Intermediate) too. So "junk" or "gem"? Is the matter of how you "use" it.


Bro, u said it. As wat the basic of fish keeping rule, of the whole batch, some comply to the term intermediate (as the breeder classify as has reached combination of A+B breeding) some follow more of A and some follow more of B. Hence, hard to get to the real intermediate breed. Thus, like wat u say, is a matter of how you use it and thus see it.:D

Just my opinion, still learning nia.:D

[Oscar77]

[B]
Bro, u said it. As wat the basic of fish keeping rule, of the whole batch, some comply to the term intermediate (as the breeder classify as has reached combination of A+B breeding) some follow more of A and some follow more of B. Hence, hard to get to the real intermediate breed. Thus, like wat u say, is a matter of how you use it and thus see it.:D

Just my opinion, still learning nia.:D

"Intermediate" widely use in New Strain. (That why you would never heard "LSS Intermediate" or "Red Melon Intermediate" by now)

Those developed strain widely use "throwback" for undersired performer. Example, Breed LSS x LSS, you might get certain percentage of 9 bars fish, which is not your desired performer (Your expectation would be LSS X LSS in order to get LSS). Therefore, those 9 bars would consider as Throwback from your crossing.

[edwardlong]

I think i would rather use the term intermediates on breeding fishes that would give off the desired offsprings.

e.g. Golden Albino Intermediate x Golden Albino Intermediate = golden albino

But again, names of a product i believe are given by the flow of the market.

:)

[Oscar77]

Golden Albino Intermediate x Golden Albino Intermediate = golden albino
:)

I think this is the common "misunderstanding" by buyer. Care to further clarify Intermediate x Intermediate = 100% golden albino offspring?

I believe the answer is No. So, sometime "misunderstand" due to lack of knowledge by the buyer. Buyer may think, good deal to buy Intermediate at lower price (Intermediate normally sell at lower price) and produce the "pure" offspring. But buyer failed to realise one fact : Intermediate do not produce 100% of the "strain" (In this case, Albino), only certain percentage, depends on how strong the genes. Some may get 50% albino, some lesser, or even NO albino offspring.

[edwardlong]

I think this is the common "misunderstanding" by buyer. Care to further clarify Intermediate x Intermediate = 100% golden albino offspring?

I believe the answer is No. So, sometime "misunderstand" due to lack of knowledge by the buyer. Buyer may think, good deal to buy Intermediate at lower price (Intermediate normally sell at lower price) and produce the "pure" offspring. But buyer failed to realise one fact : Intermediate do not produce 100% of the "strain" (In this case, Albino), only certain percentage, depends on how strong the genes. Some may get 50% albino, some lesser, or even NO albino offspring.


Well said... I totally agree with you. So far for the G. albino x G. albino, i am getting about 30-40% albinos and the rest look like the parents.

In fact for the inter x inter albinos, i find that the iris is not that pink...in fact some are closer to black in at least 1/2 of the albino offspring

[lei]

I think this is the common "misunderstanding" by buyer. Care to further clarify Intermediate x Intermediate = 100% golden albino offspring?

I believe the answer is No. So, sometime "misunderstand" due to lack of knowledge by the buyer. Buyer may think, good deal to buy Intermediate at lower price (Intermediate normally sell at lower price) and produce the "pure" offspring. But buyer failed to realise one fact : Intermediate do not produce 100% of the "strain" (In this case, Albino), only certain percentage, depends on how strong the genes. Some may get 50% albino, some lesser, or even NO albino offspring.

I agree with Bro Oscar on this... Been reading some discus ref book which mentioned topics on genetics... Let me illustrate with an example...

Lets say my intentions are to create the Albino Melons..
I would use a Golden Albino x Red Melon (non-albino gene)
This is where the tricky part is...
From this crossing, I would get Red Melon (Albino gene) & Red Melon (Non-Albino gene).. So how do we differentiate these two for future breeding to get my final product?? They look exactly the same.. I would be required to identify a pair of Red Melons that contain the albino gene so as to produce a certain percentage of Albino Melon and some Red Melon (Albino gene)..

Hence, tat should answer why some so call intermediates does not produce any Albino offspring...

Correct me if I'm wrong... Still learning here... :D

[SniperY]

Wow! Chim ah..... :eek:

[edwardlong]

Lei,

For that crossing, i would expect all the offsprings to produce a certain percentage of albino melons when they are used for inbreeding.

The question should be how red the albino melons will be?

[lei]

Bro EL
Yes... That is if we can identify a pair of Red Melon with Albino gene in them and inbreed the pair... We would achieve a certain percentage of Albino Melon..

Simple equation of what I'm trying to explain in my last post...
1) Red Melon (Non Albino gene) x Golden Albino = F1
* F1 consist of two genetically different Red Melon of which one have Albino gene and the other dont..

Inbreed two F1 Red Melon offsprings from the above crossing that have Albino gene...
2) Red Melon (Albino gene) x Red Melon (Albino gene) = F2
* F2 consist of Albino Melon Int which is Red Melon (Albino gene) and a small percentage of Albino Melon...

:D

[condor]

Bro EL
Yes... That is if we can identify a pair of Red Melon with Albino gene in them and inbreed the pair... We would achieve a certain percentage of Albino Melon..

Simple equation of what I'm trying to explain in my last post...
1) Red Melon (Non Albino gene) x Golden Albino = F1
* F1 consist of two genetically different Red Melon of which one have Albino gene and the other dont..

Inbreed two F1 Red Melon offsprings from the above crossing that have Albino gene...
2) Red Melon (Albino gene) x Red Melon (Albino gene) = F2
* F2 consist of Albino Melon Int which is Red Melon (Albino gene) and a small percentage of Albino Melon...

:D

what EL was asking how much red your so call red melon albino will be after the crossing

Btw with EL's years of experience in discus, what u posted is no news to him


*I have seen some red melon intermediate albino
they are the same as the parents

[lei]

Well.. No offence but I'm jus trying to explain why some so call Albino Intermediates pair do not produce any Albino offsprings for the benefit of newbies like me... Not trying to challenage Bro EL's experience with discus... And if you read carefully in my post, I do agree with Bro EL that inbreeding them will produced a certain percentage of Albino Melons... Whether they will turn out red or not... I do not know... The simple equation in the post is jus to illustrate to newbies (me again) for better understanding... As I've also mentioned that I read bout this from a book... Please pardon me as I have not experience in breeding... ;)

[edwardlong]

Well.. No offence but I'm jus trying to explain why some so call Albino Intermediates pair do not produce any Albino offsprings for the benefit of newbies like me... Not trying to challenage Bro EL's experience with discus... And if you read carefully in my post, I do agree with Bro EL that inbreeding them will produced a certain percentage of Albino Melons... Whether they will turn out red or not... I do not know... The simple equation in the post is jus to illustrate to newbies (me again) for better understanding... As I've also mentioned that I read bout this from a book... Please pardon me as I have not experience in breeding... ;)


Sorry for the late reply... Lei, no one is challenging anyone here... We are all discussing and sharing all our experiences. :)

It would be very strange to not get any albino offspring from a intermediate pair as this has not happen to me before nor any of my friends. So your source of the intermediates is questionable.

For Albino Melons, I am not too sure of the outcome to be honest, else i would be breeding discus full time and sell albino melons at $2000 each...kekekek.

But logically, to cross a alenquer discus and a melon, what do you think you will get? rose red? some melons? I think these would be the challenge to those ppl who are looking for albino red melons without the head striation.

;)